Talk:Ghosts
But Ryan isn't a Splicer... And yet in Eve's Garden in Fort Frolic we see The Death of J. Jolene from Ryan's viewpoint, including ghost scenes. This messes up the rest of the theory because: 1)Ryan, as far as any of us can tell, or just by looking at his face, has never spliced. 2)Ryan is alive during the whole Fort Frolic (read as: NOT DEAD), therefore his ADAM couldn't be collected by a little sister for the crossover. 3)These memories are shot of J. Jolene, and J. Jolene obviously wouldn't have memories in the 3rd person perspective. So if Ryan has never spliced, and he and Jolene were the only ones there, then where is the memory coming from? --Binoculars 04:07, January 6, 2010 (UTC) It's possible that the ghosts are physical memories, i.e. the memories of actions done. Ryan was behind the door, so he wouldn't be able to make the memory either. I think the memory is from Jolene, because of her being dead, and I think it is fairly likely that the ghosts appear as physical representations of their own memories. Boonzeet 04:15, January 6, 2010 (UTC) Hmmm... If the memories are all first person, then who witnessed the woman in the restaurant bathroom. The way she was talking makes it sound like she was alone. Also, the little sister ghost was addressing Dr. Suchong, who as far as we know, didn't splice. The same goes for most of the other ghosts. The conversations seem private. EDlTʘR •taIk• 09:05, January 6, 2010 (UTC) I agree. I think the ghosts are definitely imprints of a persons actions, as physical representatins of what they did. For example, the 'Fontaine fucks you' quote appears to be a very private conversation between two people, yet is shot in the 3rd person. Boonzeet 11:30, January 6, 2010 (UTC) Bioshock 2 Launch Trailer The only appearances of ghost being in that trailer is still worth mentioning despite the not being part of the game. Bebopblue 20:19, March 5, 2010 (UTC) So were the 'Ghosts' (BS1) the result of 'Tears' ? interdimensional echos of actual events that happened in the infinite other Raptures. Doesnt explain how we didnt see more in BS2 or BaS. I myself really prefer Rapture not be tainted by the 'Infinite' fantasy stuff, but be that as it may, can fall back on BaS NOT being 'Prime' (despite what Levine said -- which flies in the face of how this whole multiverse and infinite lighthouse stuff was defined for that game - it simply is NOT the same 'reality' ). Testxyz (talk) 11:30, December 23, 2013 (UTC) No, they're the hallucinations of other people's memories in the ADAM you take. The Vita Chambers though... Ravenfirelight (talk) 13:23, February 17, 2014 (UTC) :Oh God please no! It doesn't need to be explained by Tears. Actual ghostly phantoms would suffice, don't pass more cool stuff from Bio1 onto infinite, please! :Unownshipper (talk) 22:47, February 17, 2014 (UTC) :- :True Twistiness - it (BS Infinite) is all a extra lucid 'ghost dream' of some Splicer who used to write fantasy stories who eventually went down the 'harvested ADAM' rabbithole and it got warped and pelfed into what WE saw in the game (and WE are actually sitting in a stupor in Le Marquis D'Epoque (Civil War period Rapture) after excitation by some extra 'good' chemicals of some kind while staring at some freaky 'acid' artsy 'mobile' decoration hanging from the ceiling). : 09:36, February 18, 2014 (UTC) Coulda had at least one: Ghost scene in one of the restrooms - titled "Bad Clams" (actually thats a David Letterman Joke for a Top 10 worst Norman Rockwell Saturday Evening Post pictures list) Ghosts a better explanation (since DNA/RNA cannot hold 'memories') Sorry RNA/DNA containing memories is a 30 years gone Sci-Fi idea. There is no way to build brain patterns either electrical temporary or physical synaps links from a maybe long molecule that encodes about 20 million(DNA) ACTG combinations (or less for RNA or DNA 'patches') -- to make this Video-Recording-like 'ghost story' effect work. Subliminal whisperings (someone hiding in the woodwork? PA systems, whatever, hidden wall scrawlings) ? Jack who is now a Splicer and potentially insane hears them accumulatively and subconsciously, sees in some places the setting/props/results of the events that allegedly unfolded and his brain fills in an apparition to his conscious mind. This 'brain filling in the details' is a well documented phenomenon. Possibly the 'ghost' story he sees is not real (something different than what actually occured - if anything did) but again the result of ADAM's effects on his mind. We dont ever see the original events to compare. We do get to hear some events via Accu-Vox recordings which are detailed and played out/hinted at. Some happen to get heard after the ghost story apparition though, so its back to subliminals in the ambient location *OR* (heh) we hallucinate the played recording(think we hear it a certain way) to match the apparition we already 'saw' ??? Hows that for being Philip K Dick ??. Also possible - Coincidence that Jack imagines pretty much the same 'story' as the tapes reflect (if they hadnt been heard yet ...) Note - awful lot of 'coincidence' contrived in these games so whats a little more matter ??? 14:56, February 17, 2014 (UTC) :I'm just telling you what the game says. That's the basis for about half of Bioshock 2's plot as well (In that case, gathering the memory's of Rapture's residents in a single vessel) 16:33, February 17, 2014 (UTC) :ADAM is genetically engineered STEM CELLS with perhaps an electrical synaptic component. I am not sure if this would make a difference to the ADAM memory transfer possibility. :-- :The problem is DNA doesnt encode that - its all environmentally (life experience) generated upon the basic 'blank' structure of your brain. The detail 'info'/'data doesnt go down to that fine a level (and with 20mil crude bits of data even if it did, it is not enough info for the literally billions/trillions of very specific synaps connections in your brain to holographically build up just one of these ghost stories). :As for the memories fed into the "First Utopian" -- remember THAT it is quite likely ( only ?) a delusion on Sofia Lamb's part. Apparently it never actually worked -- did it ? Gil Alexander was turned into a freakish monstrocity and he doesnt actually say that anything of the sort worked on him. Lamb was crazy as a loon thinking to eliminate human nature from humans (apart from doing THAT somehow being superior). SO she might believe in that 'memories' idea but it has no basis in reality beside some 'ghost story' effect some people think they saw, but she couldnt directly analyze herself as she wasnt a Splicer. Has Sofia really even seen any such result (and Eleanor as the 'second try' might be clever enough to play along and use it against Sofia) or had that part really even gotten started yet (vagueness is largely what we get). :(BTW- since 'ghost stores' were explained to be missing BS2 because they became too muddled with too much recycling - passing through too many people - weirdness with the Big Sisters and such ... :What kind of 'memory' gibberish in the ADAM might be left to use any more (assuming that idea even worked) ???) :Little Sisters seem to see 'dreams' ? Well same effect as mentioned way above (they are as ADAM addled as any Splicer). Who knows what they have seen or heard from some combination of Splicer talk, their previous life, their conditioning, media they come upon, etc.... They already have that weird view we saw thru their eyes (however THAT was supposedly done - we took POSSESSION of a 7 year old child - and we saw not just through their eyes but through their conditioned filtering how they see things ... neat but who knows what weirdness Lamb and Alexander had done to them (the new ones) - Since I rely on Psi effect stuff to try to turn the Plasmids into sci-fi instead of fantasy -- i can allow some kind of guided mental projection potentially with lasting results. :Eleanor herself ... same thing. She might think she sees dreams from Little Sisters (who share her genetics... whatever that means) but she's been subjected to even more ADAM (first as a LS and later with whatever Sofia pumped into her and whatever else was done to her). :The memories Eleanor feeds into Delta ? Well his brain was reconstituted (or never became mulch and was intact enough still to revive), and who knows how selective SHE was to pre-pick 'conditioning' /imaging/memories to foster Delta coming to save her. Delta has a 2 way radio (and a TV transmitter that seems to be used by others to watch what he sees??? why not a image reciever of some kind too ?), but what other brain injection mechanisms was used with BDs (or at least attempted with his experimental model) to issue them orders and such. :Funny, is that the whole construct of 'Delta seeing Lamb order him to kill himself' could have been some recording and this daddy 'Delta' is just some (any) available Alpha body/brain which those memories were impressed upon by Eleanor's modified Vita Chamber. :---- :Humans are not very good at experiencing reality (the world as it REALY is) There are countless examples and experiments showing how people perceive a given stimuli in totally different ways. Memory is even worse when it comes to accurate recording of events. The whole ADAM story could be a grand delusion, created through brainwashing, hypnosis, conditioning etc. Jack has certainly been conditioned and sees and behaves according to what he believes to be true. The same is also probably true for Delta. We as players looking through the eyes of the conditioned brainwashed heroes are really no different than how the delusional Little Sisters see their world. In other words we see Rapture through the eyes of a delusional character, if Delta saw pink elephants, we would also see them and whether they were real or not, is mostly immaterial. :(In BioShock 3 the player could be given the task to find out what is real and what is delusional, in the game and game story. Who and what do you believe to be true, an expansion of the Atlas/Fontaine story theme, but happening throughout the whole game?) :---- :The problem is if you were conditioned how would you know you broke out of it to see things as 'reality' (which as you mentioned is based on your previous experience for how you recognize or value things). :You might have to start with someone never 'conditioned' and not a ADAM Splicer to at least avoid the usual ways you would be 'warped'. Discovery would just then be walking through things... But know tehre wouldnt be that interesting plot. :Also if you 'broke out' of your conditioning, what would you have left (how much did the conditioning wipe out leaving gaps in how you perceive reality...) Simulate that in the game by having meaningless lights flash at you and blank blocks fly at/past you could get kinda old after awhile. You destroy the conditioning or just 'realize' it may not be true (flip between reality and the 'filtered' view). :Jack for example was only like 4 years old and likely would have all of that taken up 'conditioning' and there wouldnt be much else. Even as he WAS its a little too deep/complex for the devs to simulate making us see Rapture in some limited way to simulate all the things Jack shouldnt have known, but we saw and knew what they were and meant (vs an imperfect ~4 maybe accelerated conditioning to an empty brain... maybe N-grams taken from someone else was impressed on him to help fill that void .. who knows). :They had those very limited flashback 'photographs' to try to imply something. Theres another meta level thing that Jack might not even realize he is missing memories or even know to question it (We know we should have them but he might not - but WE also have no way of inquiring/remembering in the game ) and the few photos they flashed 'oddly' .. they were just basic filler for his cover. He was up on the surface for 2 years (?) doing who knows what -- probably isolated because if someone talked to him or he saw too much it might wreck/disrupt their fragile/crude conditioning (compared to life experience which is deep and reinforced) . :I dont know how they might effectively communicate such things to players without having to whack them directly in the face with explanations. A bit deep for an FPS. : 16:33, February 19, 2014 (UTC) : Time to split this page? I've been pondering this for a while, and I feel like it's time to divide the ghosts from ''BioShock ''from the "ghosts" in ''BioShock 2 ''since by all accounts they are two entirely different things with the way they work and their presentation in each game. I propose we split the BS 2 part and call it "Eleanor's Visions" or "Eleanor's Messages" or something to that effect. Relativus (talk) 22:45, April 5, 2018 (UTC) Fine by me. --Shacob (talk) 02:10, April 6, 2018 (UTC) Go for it. Since they are two different things I kind of wonder why they are grouped together to start with. sm --Solarmech (talk) 15:58, April 6, 2018 (UTC)